遭高雄氣爆自救會長嗆「孬種」 劉寶傑酸 - 高雄
By Ethan
at 2019-01-24T21:00
at 2019-01-24T21:00
Table of Contents
※ 引述《RADIUM (跳跳暴龍)》之銘言:
: 標題: Re: [新聞] 遭高雄氣爆自救會長嗆「孬種」 劉寶傑酸
: 時間: Thu Jan 24 12:31:41 2019
: 推 capita: 登革熱是政府該出的錢卻用善款支出 請問是為什麼? 01/24 12:39
: → capita: 為什麼不是要求政府處理 而是直接由善款支出? 01/24 12:49
: 推 s380914: 因為氣爆受損的為何不能用善款善後,好端端是會有這麼大 01/24 12:50
: → s380914: 條水溝出現嗎 01/24 12:50
: → capita: 不管發生什麼天災人禍的後果 沒有善款政府就不用處理嗎? 01/24 12:53
: → capita: 既然政府都應該處理 那為什麼會用善款支出? 01/24 12:54
: 推 bouly: 因為有私心 01/24 12:54
: → capita: 政府是有預備金的 也可以善款暫時墊付 政府此後補上吧? 01/24 12:57
: → bouly: 善款直接拿來作市政,借據攏免寫 01/24 12:57
謹就這邊進行回應,一樣先說,我是社會局當初承辦氣爆災害救助的主要承辦人之一
所以我回應的內容一定有一定程度立場,但我現在已經離職了
所以通篇文章以鄉民身分回應,內容不代表我前單位
這篇文很長!學理跟實務兼具,我想一定沒什麼人理我!反正PTT早已容不下真話!
真的不想看的,請左轉離開或噓文,反正我只想講真話!愛聽不聽悉聽尊便!
如果上面這些厲害的鄉民真的有遠大的抱負跟跟監督的情操,歡迎來當社工
歡迎來當公務員,歡迎走進這龐大的政府機器裡面,不要只是站網路背後打嘴砲
如果你們能從善款裡面找到任何一筆是依法要用公務費用支應卻由善款支應的項目
拜託請你舉證然後列出來,不要只會無的放矢
大家都是人生父母養的,承辦這些業務的人可能是你親友,留點口德,多點查證
無謂的漫罵攻擊解決不了問題
正文開始
---------------------------------------------------------------
依據下述法令,法定的災害救助有這些核發要件
經濟部水利署「水災災害救助種類及標準」
https://reurl.cc/aann3
內政部消防署「風災震災火災爆炸火山災害救助種類及標準」
https://reurl.cc/585pq
高雄市災害救助金核發辦法」規定
https://reurl.cc/7jDD5
一般災害常見的救助種類有「死亡」、「重傷」、「淹水」、「安遷」等救助
死亡救助的定義為因災致死,重傷定義為因災致重傷,
淹水救助必須因災致淹水達「室內」50公分以上才能獲得
安遷救助則是必須符合因災致住屋「不堪居住」
當時氣爆發生後一星期,高雄因西南氣流影響造成連日豪雨,狀況不亞於去年的823豪雨
當時氣爆將苓雅區、前鎮區的排水系統都搞爆了,水根本排不出去
所以三多路沿線、凱旋路沿線許多住宅都從外觀受損的部份滲水進去
但「室內淹水」經過里幹事實際訪視回報,通通都沒有達到室內淹水50公分的程度
所以根本無法使用法定的災害救助預算核發災害救助金
安遷救助亦然,多數的民宅外觀損壞但未達不堪居住程度,所以無法用法定經費
在兩相權衡之下,為了避免造成氣爆災區民眾生活上的不便以及防堵疫情滋生
才會運用善款提供受創道路沿線民眾淹水慰助金,這才是事情的原委!
這些東西在八一氣爆捐款管理會的氣爆工作實錄中都清楚揭露,沒有必要在那邊陰謀論
另外一堆人還在那邊跳針錢沒給災民,錢拿去亂花,錢由少數人決定之類的~
我真的看不下去,你們知道實務工作者遇到什麼問題嗎?
1、誰是災民?
===========================================================================
因為氣爆直接傷亡的民眾跟家屬可能是直接災民毋庸置疑
那我請問各位?住在氣爆災區範圍,家裡停水停電兩星期的民眾算不算災民?
在氣爆災區範圍內賣小吃,因為災害無法擺灘做生意的民眾算不算災民?
家裡養質價值數萬元的高級魚種,卻在氣爆後因為家裡停電而讓魚死亡的民眾算不算災民?
平常上班只要10分鐘因為道路無法橫越而變成上班1小時的民眾算不算災民?
店家在災區範圍將近一個月無法上班工作的民眾算不算災民?
當你們在漫罵亂發6000元以及漫罵錢換花的時候,我真得要問你們,什麼叫災民?
上面提到的每個例子,在氣爆當時有無數通電話反映出類似的事情
你是市府單位,你要怎樣滿足每位民眾的需求?
就像我說的,滿足多數災區民眾需求及渴望卻被罵亂灑錢,不發錢又被罵鄉愿
當時的市府真的是啞巴吃黃蓮,只能在最大公約數中尋求多數民眾諒解!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2、捐款管理會到底是什麼?
============================================================================
https://socbu.kcg.gov.tw/kcg_gas/index.php?prog=31&act_code=A201409001
八一氣爆勸募計畫當時是我寫出來然後函報給衛福部的,高雄市政府八一石化氣爆
事件民間捐款專戶設置管理及運用作業要點也是我們科起草然後跟市府法制局訂出來的
臺灣從立法院到鄉代表會都是走代議制度,這種基本的民主素養相信大家都知道
我搞不懂到底各位在糾結什麼?氣爆捐款管理會就是代議制度
由委員多數決來協助主辦單位管理善款,藉以杜絕由主辦單位全權處理的陋習
捐款管理會安排17-23人,只有3個是市府代表
其他都是專家學者、民間相關機構團體、重傷民眾代表等等
委員會裡面像是陳冠榮會長代表傷亡者、徐晏祥不只是傷者也是傷者代表
此外還有租車業代表、義消代表、學者專家也有高醫大的校長、長庚醫院副院長
會計事務所負責人、中山大學公共事物研究所所長等等
前幾屆委員還包含了社福團體代表等等專業法律人員
這些專家學者都已經有相當程度的名望跟專業地位
根本不可能為了區區一次會議2000元的出席費出賣自己的專業跟人格來護航!
政府機關也只有3個代表,連1/3都不到,這是要怎樣護航?
就連管錢的社會局也只是幕僚單位,沒有案件審核權利,只能當秘書協助會議召開而已!
捐款支用流程大概是這樣
機關(民眾)代表寫計畫向提案-->委員先進行初審-->通過後提委員會-->
申請單位至委員會報告需求目的及必要性-->委員審議-->共識決定是否同意補助
也就是所有費用都是運用代議制度提出申請,政府官方只有紀錄的功能
所有經費生殺大權都是由委員會決定,政府官方只有紀錄的功能!
無知的人只看到哪些計畫通過,卻沒看過被刪除及駁回的計畫有多少!
只要是公務預算應該要支應的項目,善款一毛錢都不出!
善款全數支出都是公務預算無法支應的部份!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3、災區到底設置永久性藝術品、推展災區商圈產業、進行藝文活動何不合理?
=====================================================================
我在前幾篇文上面就有提到了「災害」的定義!
「災害(Disaster)可以包含自然、人為或是生物
災變,常見的自然災害類型有颱風、地震、海嘯、山崩、土石流、龍捲風…等,
人為或生物災害則包含戰爭、空難、海難、火車出軌、核爆、火災、氣爆、瘟疫等」
災害的發生原因、不可預測性、所造成的恐懼與不安、災害的發生位置及影響範圍
等特殊特性,都會影響到整個社會與環境。
之所以稱為災害,是因為災害會影響正常生活運作、人命傷亡與財產損失、群體文化
風俗破壞、經濟、交通與通訊中斷以及建築物損毀…等,因此,一個事件若沒有帶來
上述的影響,則統稱為危險(hazard),而非災害。」
因為災害有上述特性,所以災害重建並不只有單純「災民」需要被救助
包括當地的風俗文化、經濟、交通、通訊、產業經濟等等都必須獲得滿足
國外現在都是用「復原力Disaster Resilience」來定義這樣的過程
也就是國外從各種不同的災害事件中發現,復原力才是影響災害重建的關鍵因素
「復原力」是一種關鍵因素,透過社區產業的復興、文化藝術的傳承再建構
交通、通訊、建築、藝術培力、社區培力等機制介入,而未把焦點只放在「災民」
目的就是不讓重建資源只放在「災民」這個點,而是擴大到整個環境跟風俗民情
這樣才能藉由群體的力量達成災害預防、復原以及重建的功能~
所以照這邏輯來看,設置氣爆事件紀念意象、推動產業重建、補助商圈再造
補助災區店家未營業損失、公共招牌及道路指標統一且翻新、建物拉皮等措施
都是建構在「復原力」的基礎上,而不是單純的把資源放在「災民」身上
而是設身處地的包含環境、文化、風俗以及經濟建設都做完整的考量!
我相信這樣的措施才是負責任的政府!
而不是隨便幾個人信口開河的畫箭射靶亂罵一通!
--
: 標題: Re: [新聞] 遭高雄氣爆自救會長嗆「孬種」 劉寶傑酸
: 時間: Thu Jan 24 12:31:41 2019
: 推 capita: 登革熱是政府該出的錢卻用善款支出 請問是為什麼? 01/24 12:39
: → capita: 為什麼不是要求政府處理 而是直接由善款支出? 01/24 12:49
: 推 s380914: 因為氣爆受損的為何不能用善款善後,好端端是會有這麼大 01/24 12:50
: → s380914: 條水溝出現嗎 01/24 12:50
: → capita: 不管發生什麼天災人禍的後果 沒有善款政府就不用處理嗎? 01/24 12:53
: → capita: 既然政府都應該處理 那為什麼會用善款支出? 01/24 12:54
: 推 bouly: 因為有私心 01/24 12:54
: → capita: 政府是有預備金的 也可以善款暫時墊付 政府此後補上吧? 01/24 12:57
: → bouly: 善款直接拿來作市政,借據攏免寫 01/24 12:57
謹就這邊進行回應,一樣先說,我是社會局當初承辦氣爆災害救助的主要承辦人之一
所以我回應的內容一定有一定程度立場,但我現在已經離職了
所以通篇文章以鄉民身分回應,內容不代表我前單位
這篇文很長!學理跟實務兼具,我想一定沒什麼人理我!反正PTT早已容不下真話!
真的不想看的,請左轉離開或噓文,反正我只想講真話!愛聽不聽悉聽尊便!
如果上面這些厲害的鄉民真的有遠大的抱負跟跟監督的情操,歡迎來當社工
歡迎來當公務員,歡迎走進這龐大的政府機器裡面,不要只是站網路背後打嘴砲
如果你們能從善款裡面找到任何一筆是依法要用公務費用支應卻由善款支應的項目
拜託請你舉證然後列出來,不要只會無的放矢
大家都是人生父母養的,承辦這些業務的人可能是你親友,留點口德,多點查證
無謂的漫罵攻擊解決不了問題
正文開始
---------------------------------------------------------------
依據下述法令,法定的災害救助有這些核發要件
經濟部水利署「水災災害救助種類及標準」
https://reurl.cc/aann3
內政部消防署「風災震災火災爆炸火山災害救助種類及標準」
https://reurl.cc/585pq
高雄市災害救助金核發辦法」規定
https://reurl.cc/7jDD5
一般災害常見的救助種類有「死亡」、「重傷」、「淹水」、「安遷」等救助
死亡救助的定義為因災致死,重傷定義為因災致重傷,
淹水救助必須因災致淹水達「室內」50公分以上才能獲得
安遷救助則是必須符合因災致住屋「不堪居住」
當時氣爆發生後一星期,高雄因西南氣流影響造成連日豪雨,狀況不亞於去年的823豪雨
當時氣爆將苓雅區、前鎮區的排水系統都搞爆了,水根本排不出去
所以三多路沿線、凱旋路沿線許多住宅都從外觀受損的部份滲水進去
但「室內淹水」經過里幹事實際訪視回報,通通都沒有達到室內淹水50公分的程度
所以根本無法使用法定的災害救助預算核發災害救助金
安遷救助亦然,多數的民宅外觀損壞但未達不堪居住程度,所以無法用法定經費
在兩相權衡之下,為了避免造成氣爆災區民眾生活上的不便以及防堵疫情滋生
才會運用善款提供受創道路沿線民眾淹水慰助金,這才是事情的原委!
這些東西在八一氣爆捐款管理會的氣爆工作實錄中都清楚揭露,沒有必要在那邊陰謀論
另外一堆人還在那邊跳針錢沒給災民,錢拿去亂花,錢由少數人決定之類的~
我真的看不下去,你們知道實務工作者遇到什麼問題嗎?
1、誰是災民?
===========================================================================
因為氣爆直接傷亡的民眾跟家屬可能是直接災民毋庸置疑
那我請問各位?住在氣爆災區範圍,家裡停水停電兩星期的民眾算不算災民?
在氣爆災區範圍內賣小吃,因為災害無法擺灘做生意的民眾算不算災民?
家裡養質價值數萬元的高級魚種,卻在氣爆後因為家裡停電而讓魚死亡的民眾算不算災民?
平常上班只要10分鐘因為道路無法橫越而變成上班1小時的民眾算不算災民?
店家在災區範圍將近一個月無法上班工作的民眾算不算災民?
當你們在漫罵亂發6000元以及漫罵錢換花的時候,我真得要問你們,什麼叫災民?
上面提到的每個例子,在氣爆當時有無數通電話反映出類似的事情
你是市府單位,你要怎樣滿足每位民眾的需求?
就像我說的,滿足多數災區民眾需求及渴望卻被罵亂灑錢,不發錢又被罵鄉愿
當時的市府真的是啞巴吃黃蓮,只能在最大公約數中尋求多數民眾諒解!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2、捐款管理會到底是什麼?
============================================================================
https://socbu.kcg.gov.tw/kcg_gas/index.php?prog=31&act_code=A201409001
八一氣爆勸募計畫當時是我寫出來然後函報給衛福部的,高雄市政府八一石化氣爆
事件民間捐款專戶設置管理及運用作業要點也是我們科起草然後跟市府法制局訂出來的
臺灣從立法院到鄉代表會都是走代議制度,這種基本的民主素養相信大家都知道
我搞不懂到底各位在糾結什麼?氣爆捐款管理會就是代議制度
由委員多數決來協助主辦單位管理善款,藉以杜絕由主辦單位全權處理的陋習
捐款管理會安排17-23人,只有3個是市府代表
其他都是專家學者、民間相關機構團體、重傷民眾代表等等
委員會裡面像是陳冠榮會長代表傷亡者、徐晏祥不只是傷者也是傷者代表
此外還有租車業代表、義消代表、學者專家也有高醫大的校長、長庚醫院副院長
會計事務所負責人、中山大學公共事物研究所所長等等
前幾屆委員還包含了社福團體代表等等專業法律人員
這些專家學者都已經有相當程度的名望跟專業地位
根本不可能為了區區一次會議2000元的出席費出賣自己的專業跟人格來護航!
政府機關也只有3個代表,連1/3都不到,這是要怎樣護航?
就連管錢的社會局也只是幕僚單位,沒有案件審核權利,只能當秘書協助會議召開而已!
捐款支用流程大概是這樣
機關(民眾)代表寫計畫向提案-->委員先進行初審-->通過後提委員會-->
申請單位至委員會報告需求目的及必要性-->委員審議-->共識決定是否同意補助
也就是所有費用都是運用代議制度提出申請,政府官方只有紀錄的功能
所有經費生殺大權都是由委員會決定,政府官方只有紀錄的功能!
無知的人只看到哪些計畫通過,卻沒看過被刪除及駁回的計畫有多少!
只要是公務預算應該要支應的項目,善款一毛錢都不出!
善款全數支出都是公務預算無法支應的部份!
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3、災區到底設置永久性藝術品、推展災區商圈產業、進行藝文活動何不合理?
=====================================================================
我在前幾篇文上面就有提到了「災害」的定義!
「災害(Disaster)可以包含自然、人為或是生物
災變,常見的自然災害類型有颱風、地震、海嘯、山崩、土石流、龍捲風…等,
人為或生物災害則包含戰爭、空難、海難、火車出軌、核爆、火災、氣爆、瘟疫等」
災害的發生原因、不可預測性、所造成的恐懼與不安、災害的發生位置及影響範圍
等特殊特性,都會影響到整個社會與環境。
之所以稱為災害,是因為災害會影響正常生活運作、人命傷亡與財產損失、群體文化
風俗破壞、經濟、交通與通訊中斷以及建築物損毀…等,因此,一個事件若沒有帶來
上述的影響,則統稱為危險(hazard),而非災害。」
因為災害有上述特性,所以災害重建並不只有單純「災民」需要被救助
包括當地的風俗文化、經濟、交通、通訊、產業經濟等等都必須獲得滿足
國外現在都是用「復原力Disaster Resilience」來定義這樣的過程
也就是國外從各種不同的災害事件中發現,復原力才是影響災害重建的關鍵因素
「復原力」是一種關鍵因素,透過社區產業的復興、文化藝術的傳承再建構
交通、通訊、建築、藝術培力、社區培力等機制介入,而未把焦點只放在「災民」
目的就是不讓重建資源只放在「災民」這個點,而是擴大到整個環境跟風俗民情
這樣才能藉由群體的力量達成災害預防、復原以及重建的功能~
所以照這邏輯來看,設置氣爆事件紀念意象、推動產業重建、補助商圈再造
補助災區店家未營業損失、公共招牌及道路指標統一且翻新、建物拉皮等措施
都是建構在「復原力」的基礎上,而不是單純的把資源放在「災民」身上
而是設身處地的包含環境、文化、風俗以及經濟建設都做完整的考量!
我相信這樣的措施才是負責任的政府!
而不是隨便幾個人信口開河的畫箭射靶亂罵一通!
--
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